Goree is interviewed by Sheryl McCarthy, host of CUNY TV’s show “One to One.”
MCCARTHY: Welcome to One To One. It was big news earlier this year when Lisa Goree, the elected town assessor for the town of Southampton, was appointed head of the Shinnecock Indian Nation on eastern Long Island, the tribe's first female leader in more than 200 years. It probably was also news to many that an Indian reservation even exists on Long Island, right next to one of the area's most affluent beach communities. How did the Shinnecock reservation come to be? How many people live here? What are the tribe's plans for the future? And what's the nature of their relationship with the residents of the town next door? Here to answer these questions is Lisa Goree, chair of the tribal council of the Shinnecock Indian Nation. Welcome.
GOREE: Hi Sheryl, thank you for having me.
MCCARTHY So, how unusual is it for a woman to be elected a tribal leader?
GOREE: Very unusual for the Shinnecock nation. As you mentioned in your opening, it's been over 200 years since we had a female that represented the tribe, the leader of the tribe. 1:30 MCCARTHY: But at some point, women were the leaders of the tribe, and that changed at some point. What happened? 1:37 GOREE: So, back in 1792 when we began treaties and negotiations with the state over our land rights, we were forced into a three-man trustee system. So, prior to 1792, we did have a female that was the head of the tribe. She was actually called sunksquaw, and we still have a sunksquaw currently, but she's not the head of the tribe.
MCCARTHY: So, give me just a very brief history of the Shinnecock tribe. Have they always been on Long Island?
GOREE: We have existed on our territory on Long Island for over 13,000 years.
MCCARTHY: And you were originally fishermen, I understand.
GOREE: Fishermen, hunters, whalers, yes.
MCCARTHY: And you originally had a whole lot more land than you do now.
GOREE: Yes, we did. We actually inhabited from Montauk all the way to Brookhaven back in the 1600s prior to the settlers arriving.
MCCARTHY: And so, the European settlers came. Were they English, Dutch?
GOREE: The first settlers were Dutch. The first contact were the Dutch.
MCCARTHY: And I guess it was sort of the usual story. The settlers brought disease, for one thing, they killed off a lot of people, in some cases just murder, and certainly appropriation of land.
GOREE: Yes.
MCCARTHY: When did the reservation, which is what, 800 acres?
GOREE: About 800 acres we now reside on.
MCCARTHY: When was the reservation created?
GOREE: Well, back in around 1859 is actually when we were placed on what we now call the neck of Southampton Village. So, as the settlers started taking our land and our land base started getting smaller and smaller, they placed us on a small piece of our territory, which is about 800 acres, and that's where we are today.
MCCARTHY: So, the Shinnecock were rounded up and moved to this particular place?
GOREE: Pretty much, yeah. So, throughout the years, beginning in the 1700s, we started leasing our land to farmers. So, as we started leasing our land, we would just have that small place, which we called our territory, and later called the reservation by the settlers. So, that's where we are now, and we've been there since the 1800s.
MCCARTHY: Tell me about the reservation. How many people live on it? Who gets to live there?
GOREE: So, out of the 800 acres that we have, we also have about 800 tribal members that still reside on territory, although we have about 1600 tribal members in total, but just around 800 that still reside on territory.
MCCARTHY: And is any Shinnecock tribe member allowed to live on the reservation? How does that work?
GOREE: Oh, yes. As long as…. So we are a matrilineal society. So, you have to trace your lineage back through your mother, your grandmother, your great-grandmother, and then once you do that, you can apply for enrollment on the reservation. So, once you are enrolled and an enrolled tribal member, you can then have access to a land allotment.
MCCARTHY: Okay. I was surprised to read that there are almost 200,000 American Indians in New York City alone, many of them in Queens. Now, the Shinnecock who don't live on the reservation, are they still in the area or could they be…
GOREE: We have a lot that are still in Suffolk County, some Nassau County. A lot of people…a lot of my family actually reside in Richmond, Virginia. So, they're pretty much all over the country, but for economic reasons, maybe even marriage, a lot of people moved away to raise families, but they always tend to come back home.
MCCARTHY: Okay. Now, the governing structure. You are the head. There's a tribal council. How big is the council?
GOREE: So, the council is seven members.
MCCARTHY: Okay. And you're the head?
GOREE: Yes, so I'm the chairwoman, and then we also have the sunksquaw and the sachem, which are pretty much spiritual leaders. So, they promote prayer, our traditions, and our culture. And then we also have treasurer, we have a council secretary, and we also have a general council secretary.
MCCARTHY: Now, what kind of power does a tribal council have? What do you regulate? I mean, in terms of policing, do they do that or does a neighboring town do that?
GOREE: So, we don't have a tribal police on territory, so we rely on the outside New York State police department and sometimes we can also rely on the Southampton town. But mainly if we need assistance for anything involving law enforcement, we call on the state.
MCCARTHY: Now, I have actually been to the reservation because I have a friend who, she's not a Shinnecock, but she attended services at the church on your reservation. Tell me what else, in terms of structural things, are there on the reservation? There are, you said, 800, 900 people.
GOREE: Yes. So, under our government structure, we also have a healthcare system. So, we have a health facility. We also have an environmental department. We have a finance department, we have a housing department, we have a mental health and social services department. And all of our tribal members do run those departments.
MCCARTHY: My goodness, that's a lot of structure.
GOREE: It is a lot of structure, yes.
MCCARTHY: That's a lot of structure. Is there a school on the reservation?
GOREE: We have a preschool for our young children, and they start as early as babies all the way up to age four or age five, and it's called the Wuneechanunk Shinnecock Preschool.
MCCARTHY: And when they get to a certain age, do they go to schools…
GOREE: They go into public schools, yes.
MCCARTHY: Off of the reservation.
GOREE: Off of the reservation. They either enter the Southampton public school district or Tuckahoe school.
MCCARTHY: Okay. Now, were you born on the reservation? Did you grow up on the reservation yourself?
GOREE: Yes, I was born in Southampton Hospital. I was raised on the reservation until I was about ten years old, and my mom happened to get a better job opportunity off the reservation, so we moved to Riverhead. I completed my education there, and I married my husband in 1985, and we moved back to the reservation and started our family.
MCCARTHY: What was it like growing up on the reservation?
GOREE: Oh, it was wonderful. I was just thinking about it this morning, actually. We have a beach on territory. It's called Cuffy's Beach, and I just remember walking down the road, groups of us, all children walking to the beach, and there used to be a candy shop on our way to the beach. And I don't know why I thought of this this morning, but I could still smell the scent of the cigar smell. There was a gentleman that ran the shop, and he would often sit in there smoking his cigars, and the scent of that with the smell of the candy, it was such an aroma, something you can't forget.
MCCARTHY: So, you moved away, and you and your husband moved back. Real estate, the whole real estate thing is a little tricky when you're talking about an Indian reservation because the land belongs to the tribe.
GOREE: To the tribe, yes.
MCCARTHY: Right. So, if you want to build a house there, how does that work?
GOREE: So, part of the responsibility of the council of trustees is to oversee the land. So, we are the stewards of our land. So, like you said, you can't own the land. So once a tribal member becomes of age, twenty-one years old, they are afforded an allotment of land to build, to raise their family, you can farm, whatever you need to do to sustain your life on the reservation. So, we can't get mortgages because the bank will never own the land, the land belongs to the tribe. So, a lot of people, including myself, when you build your house, you usually have to go from paycheck to paycheck.
MCCARTHY: Because you have to self-finance the whole thing.
GOREE: Yep. You pretty much have to self-finance it, unless you're afforded an opportunity to take out, maybe, a personal loan to assist you, but pretty much everyone builds paycheck to paycheck.
MCCARTHY: And if somebody decides to leave, what happens to the house? What happens to the house?
GOREE: So, you can gift your allotment to your family member. We do have cases where people have left the reservation and the houses are just sitting there, so after a certain number of years, that allotment is given back to the tribe so that it can be gifted to someone else.
MCCARTHY: Now, there's also a museum on the reservation. Tell me about that.
GOREE: We have a museum that was built in the early 2000s. However, right now it is not open. It does need to go under some repairs and renovations because it is log cabins, so the wood needs to be treated. So, we are hoping to have that up and running again soon because we have a lot of our artifacts in there, our historical memoirs are in there, so we certainly want to make sure that we preserve that history that's in there. So, hopefully we'll have it up and running again soon.
MCCARTHY: I have to ask you about your dress, your outfit, which is gorgeous. So, I'm going to let you explain it to me.
GOREE: Certainly. So, this is, in Native American terms we call this regalia. So, this is called a ribbon skirt, and a ribbon skirt is worn for special occasions, events, ceremonies. And then of course I have all my moccasins, which a dear friend of mine made for me a couple of years ago.
MCCARTHY: And they are made of?
GOREE: These are buckskin.
MCCARTHY: Okay, beautiful.
GOREE: Yes, I did the be beading myself. This is called a medallion. As you can see, it has our Shinnecock emblem on here. This was made by also a dear friend of mine as well. And this is a concho belt. So, yeah, this is part of the Native American regalia.
MCCARTHY: Alright. I'm interested in the economics of the reservation, how it supports itself. Because, I mean, do you pay taxes?
GOREE: No.
MCCARTHY: You don't pay property taxes.
GOREE: We don't pay property taxes, no.
MCCARTHY: So how do you…. And you're not part of Southampton.
GOREE: Right.
MCCARTHY: Okay, you're independent. How does the tribe support itself?
GOREE: So, we mostly support ourselves, and a lot of our businesses that are on the reservations—like I mentioned, we have a housing department, we have healthcare departments—a lot of those are run by grants: state grants, federal grants. And that's pretty much how we sustain ourselves right now. So, every time a grant comes to an end, we have to apply for more grants to keep the territory running.
MCCARTHY: But there are businesses, I mean, economic undertakings. For instance, you have your Labor Day powwow.
GOREE: Yes, the Labor Day weekend.
MCCARTHY: I've never been to a powwow. Tell me about the powwow.
GOREE: This year will actually be our seventy-eighth annual powwow. We've been hosting the powwow since the early 1940s. So, it's just a time when all of your family and friends come together, tribes from across the nation come together and celebrate our traditions, our culture, our food. The powwow actually runs for four days. So, it'll start on that Friday before Labor Day and run through Monday. And through the weekend we'll probably have maybe 10,000 to 20,000 people just coming on territory for that entire time.
MCCARTHY: Goodness. Where do they all stay?
GOREE: Well, a lot of people come and go, but we also have an area for camping. A lot of the tribes bring their big campers out, so we have an area that's just for campers. So, yeah, it's a really huge event.
MCCARTHY: And it's also a money maker. It's a fundraiser for the reservation.
GOREE: It's one of our biggest money makers that we have on the tribe, yes.
MCCARTHY: You also have a festival in Autumn. Some of us have Thanksgiving, you have a festival as well, right?
GOREE: We have Nunnowa.
MCCARTHY: Nunnowa.
GOREE: So, we usually do Nunnowa, which is our community feast that's done the week before the traditional Thanksgiving. So, all of the tribe members come together. We drum, we dance, we sing, and we just all prepare a feast together.
MCCARTHY: And there's some businesses on the reservation. There's a smoke shop, which is just off the reservation, correct?
GOREE: We actually have several smoke shops on the reservation. We now have a cannabis dispensary that is owned by the tribe, but the other businesses that are on the highway, they're privately owned by tribal members.
MCCARTHY: Okay. Now, historically, there's been a history of Indians battling government authorities over land, almost always over land: ownership of land, payments for mineral rights, incursion by corporate pipelines. You have been quoted as saying, quote, “No matter what we do, we always face challenges and roadblocks. Someone is always trying to stop us.” Tell me about your experience with that.
GOREE: So, just recently we started the construction of a gas station on one of our Aboriginal lands in Hampton Bays. It's probably about eight to ten miles west of our territory where we reside at. So of course, we face a lot of criticism and pushback from the local residents in that area.
MCCARTHY: Over the gas station.
GOREE: Over the gas station, yes.
MCCARTHY: What was the issue? Why?
GOREE: They wanted to make sure that we had the right environmental studies that were done, what was the impact going to be to the neighboring parcels. And we did provide all of that information to the local officials, but like I said, we always get pushback, and all we're trying to do is make sure that our people are taken care of and that we're able to utilize our land in ways that we see fit.
MCCARTHY: The big battle, I gather, was over the Shinnecock Hills golf course.
GOREE: Yes.
MCCARTHY: Now, the golf course has been around for a while, right?
GOREE: The golf course has been there since about 1859, yes.
MCCARTHY: Okay. But there was a lawsuit. The tribe brought a lawsuit. Were you trying to reclaim that land? Because your position is that it was yours to begin with.
GOREE: Right, right.
MCCARTHY: And you did not win that lawsuit.
GOREE: We did not win that lawsuit. However, we have had very good relationships with the new managers of that golf club. They do recognize that that land once did belong to Shinnecock, and we have ancestors that are buried on that land. So, our relationships with them have gotten better. They do recognize that. They make contributions to the reservation. We have a Boys and Girls Club on the reservation, and a couple of times during the summer they go there, they learn how to play golf. So, our relationship with them has gotten much better.
MCCARTHY: Hard to get land back after it's been taken.
GOREE: Very hard, very hard. You just can't expect someone to just move out of their houses and give it back to Shinnecock. But we just wanted recognition that it was ours.
MCCARTHY: Now, I gather there was an issue over commercial building over your tribal burial grounds. Now, are these burial grounds on the golf course? Are they someplace else? I know there were protests against construction on what you say were your ancient burial grounds.
GOREE: Right. So, we have an area in Southampton that's adjacent to our territory that's called Shinnecock Hills, and back in 1600s, 1700s, that's where we used to bury a lot of our ancestors, on the high areas on the reservation. So, now of course we don't own that land, but we do have a land trust organization in the town of Southampton that is assisting us in acquiring back some of that land, and they are preserving it. So, there was an instance a couple of years ago where there was a residential construction that was going on, and they did unearth some remains that turned out to be Shinnecock. So of course, construction was stopped, the land was preserved. And so, that's a lot of Shinnecock Hills, not just the golf course, but there are a lot of areas in Shinnecock Hills where we know where our ancestral burial grounds are.
MCCARTHY: Casinos have been a windfall for some Indian tribes. The Shinnecock had also, or have also proposed building casino. Where did that go, or where is that now?
GOREE: It's still in the works. We have not taken it off the table. Once we find a suitable location…of course we considered it a while ago on territory, which we have every right to do that, but we would rather not have it on territory. So, as soon as we find a suitable location that we find would be beneficial to the tribe and for neighboring areas, we're still pursuing it.
MCCARTHY: For the tribes that have built casinos, in some cases what happened was, the tribe brings in…a company comes in that builds and runs casinos, and the company makes the money, and the tribe gets the leftovers. I don't know if that's true or not. I mean, what's your sense of how that works?
GOREE: I guess it's just like taking out a loan to build a house. You have to repay back the loan, so that goes a lot with development also. The developers, they want to see their return as well. The reservations, they do get a profit as well, but you might not see that huge profit or that revenue right in the beginning. May take a couple of years.
MCCARTHY: But you guys are seriously thinking about a possible…
GOREE: Oh, yes.
MCCARTHY: …a possible casino. Well, getting anything built in Long Island is like getting anything built in Manhattan. That's going to take a lot of effort.
GOREE: It's a lot of effort, yes. Good things come to those who wait, I always believe in that.
MCCARTHY: So, you are now the head of the tribal council. What are the major challenges that you feel the reservation is facing?
GOREE: Economic development of course is number one. Being able to take care of our tribal members, our elders. They lack adequate healthcare, adequate housing. Our children, we want to make sure that we are able to take care of them, to make sure that they can receive a proper education, health, mental services. So, those are some of the things that I'm faced with, and hopefully if I'm reelected again…
MCCARTHY: What do you have, you have a two-year term?
GOREE: Right now, I'm fulfilling a one-year term. Our former chairman, Brian Polite, stepped down midway through his term, so that's when I considered to run. But the normal terms are two years.
MCCARTHY: You talked about the relationship with the golf course, and of course you are an elected official in Southampton. You're the person who assesses…
GOREE: I'm their town assessor, yes.
MCCARTHY: You're the town assessor.
GOREE: Town assessor, yes.
MCCARTHY: Okay. Does that give you an extra in, in terms of relationships between the town and the reservation?
GOREE: Actually, I would say that it does because I am the town assessor and a lot of the local organizations know me as the town assessor, so they have actually invited myself and other council members to come before them and give them presentations about some of the economic development that we are doing throughout the town. So, I think it does give me an edge, yes.
MCCARTHY: Southampton is, well, it's the Hamptons, and it's a very, very wealthy area where people have a lot of money and a lot of fancy houses. And you're this Indian reservation, modest income, modest reservation right next door. I would think that that would cause some conflicts, some tension.
GOREE: It definitely causes some tension. Even just to get people to acknowledge that all of that affluent area once belonged to us. And we can look out across the bay, and we see these beautiful mansions going up, but then when you look out across the other way, if you were to look from the side of those mansions, you look across our way and you don't see that. I mean, we preserve a lot of our beach land, so it's open, but just to look across the water and look at all those mansions on land that once was ours…and a lot of those people don't even know that we exist. They don't even know that they're looking at a reservation across the water. Once I heard someone say, well, you know, they can't have everything. Well, we don't want everything. We just want what's rightfully ours.
MCCARTHY: I gather there has been controversy over, I guess another beach, Cooper's Beach?
GOREE: Yes, Cooper's Beach.
MCCARTHY: Is that in Southampton?
GOREE: Yes, it's in the village of Southampton. It's probably less than a mile up the road from where we live.
MCCARTHY: So, what was the issue?
GOREE: So, that beach is where our ancestors used to fish and whale. So, now they won't even allow the tribal members access to that beach. We're not allowed beach passes. Well, of course they'll give us a beach pass if we pay for it, but we as tribal members feel that those were part of our original lands and that we should be entitled to have free access to that beach. So, that's one of the controversies we've been facing for quite a few years now.
MCCARTHY: And you still don't have free access? You have to buy pass?
GOREE: No, we still don't have free access. I actually had a meeting a couple of months ago with the mayor, and they just refuse to give us any type, not even a discounted pass.
MCCARTHY: And there were protests?
GOREE: We had protests out there, yes, we did. About maybe two or three years ago we had a protest, yes. They will not give in. A lot of the village residents, like I said, they won't even acknowledge that once, that land used to belong to us. A lot of their feeling is, well, just get over it.
MCCARTHY: Well, can we come and visit the reservation?
GOREE: You certainly can.
MCCARTHY: Anyone can come?
GOREE: Anytime. We would love to have you come visit, especially for the annual pow wow. Definitely, yes.
MCCARTHY: Okay. Around Labor Day.
GOREE: We'd love to see you, yes.
MCCARTHY: Well, I was really excited when I first learned that there was an Indian reservation on Long Island, and certainly excited to hear that a woman heads it. So, thank you for coming and telling us about something I think a lot of us didn't know about.
GOREE: Thank you very much.
MCCARTHY: I'm afraid we're out of time. I want to thank Lisa Goree, chair of the tribal council of the Shinnecock Indian Nation for joining me today. To stay updated on our upcoming shows, follow us on X, formerly Twitter, at One To One CUNY TV. Plus, you can now watch on the go by downloading the CUNY TV app. For the City University of New York and One To One, I'm Sheryl McCarthy.
CUNY TV. “Talk with Lisa Goree: Shinnecock Nation Leader | One to One.” YouTube video, 27:30. Sept. 13, 2024. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwnIb9RQEow